Big Mac admits Roids

[osu99jp]

This is all over the press now. McGwire had fessed up to using steroids on and off for a decade. Not huge news, although it's being treated as such. I will compliment him on at least one thing - I think finally someone is being completely honest about the time frame....he said as early as 1989/90 he used, and through the 1990's including his 70 HR season he was on them.

[Franny]

I'm glad he's telling the truth now. That's all you can do. With or without steroids he and Jose Canseco were always 2 of my favs, it was sad to watch those guys turn into weirdos.

LaRussa wants to use him as a pinch hitter or DH during the postseason. I would LOVE to see that shit.

[osu99jp]

Summarize your thoughts on players from the "Steroid Era" and their Hall of Fame candidacy.

I beileve a player should be judged strictly on his on-field production. I do not care if they took steroids, and if I had a vote I would not hold it against them.

[Franny]

Originally Posted by osu99jp

Summarize your thoughts on players from the "Steroid Era" and their Hall of Fame candidacy.

I beileve a player should be judged strictly on his on-field production. I do not care if they took steroids, and if I had a vote I would not hold it against them.

Agreed. I've made it clear that I don't care if athletes use performance enhancing drugs, in fact I'd encourage it. J.Mart always used to make the argument: "Well, it's not fair Franny! Babe Ruth didn't get access to HGH! These records are sacred!" Hogwash - Babe Ruth didn't have access to LASIK, Tommy John Surgery, MRI's, etc - why are those procedures legal if they give modern athletes an edge?

[osu99jp]

Today's players have a countless number of advantages over the old timers - which makes Babe Ruth all that more amazing to me. He was able to do things in the 1920's and 30's that TODAY's players cannot come close to doing. He was truly ahead of his time as a power hitter. I know, I know, "he never had to face black pitchers" - whatever.

Babe Ruth will never be surpassed, as far as I'm concerned. Greatest player ever.

Anyway...it sounds cliche, but cheaters are cheaters - I am not qualified to draw the line between which cheaters are "worthy" of enshrinement and which ones are "unworthy" - and neither are the sportswriters. Buster Olney was on Mike & Mike this morning saying that the writers should have nothing to do with voting for the Hall, and I like his thinking.

[osu99jp]

PS: I think Babe Ruth would have taken steroids has they been available to him back in the day.

[HilltopperRuss]

I think that if they admit they have taken roids, or it is proven they have taken roids, they should be banned from the hall just like Rose. If they let them in they should also let Rose in.

The players who took roids influenced the outcome of as many, if not more, games than Pete Rose ever did.

Like the idea of taking the writers out of the hall voting.

[osu99jp]

I think it's kind of ironic that you agree with taking the writers out of the hall voting..

Only recently has this viewpoint really started to gain steam. And from my vantage point, it is a direct response to "old school grouchy sportswriters" that have judged PED users as being unworthy of Hall enshrinement.

The catalyst for the entire movement was the grouchy old sportswriters that proudly announced that they will never vote for 'roiders like Mac, Bonds, A-Rod, etc.

Only after writers began saying such things did "new school" thinkers like Buster Olney, Rob Neyer, and Keith Law call for their votes to be taken away.

They all basically agreed that being a beat reporter does not qualify one to decide on who gets in. But once they all started making moral judgments on an entire era of players, this entire movement suddenly began to become more mainstream.

The irony being that you want all roiders barred from the Hall...yet you also like the idea of keeping writers out of the process. If writers were kept IN the process, your wish for a steroid-free Hall of Fame would be safe. I think if the vote is taken away from the writers, Big Mac, Raffy, Bonds, and Clemens' chances just went way up.

Just an observation.

[osu99jp]

Lance's reaction:

McGwire reaction
I watched the interview he did with Bob Costas last night. As bored as I am by steroid talk...it was riveting TV.
*Bob Costas is outstanding. Best and most versatile broadcaster of my generation.
*McGwire's comments: Bullcrap.
Give me a break. He was a willing participant in a sham.
The hug of his son at home plate after the record breaking homer: Sham
The hug and tears for the Maris family that record breaking night: Sham
None of it was for something real. It was a fraud. It was a lie.
The "chase" of 1998...with McGwire and Sammy Sosa was fake.
I attended games at Riverfront to watch McGwire's chase. It was all a big fat lie.
He used a "low" dosage of steroids? Low...what?
He doesn't know what exactly he used? Huh?
He wished he never played in the era of steroids? He was PART of it...not a victim of it.
He insists steroids didn't help his ability to hit homers? What??????
He apologized to the Maris family? For what? He says he would have hit the homers without steroids.
As for Bud Selig's reaction: Please.
Do I care if McGwire's a batting coach for the Cardinals? Nope
Hall of Fame? My rear end.
I do find it comical that McGwire's play on the field cheated the game.....yet he's welcomed back....while Pete Rose's play on the field never cheated the game and he's 20+ years on the outside looking in.

I still kind of chuckle at those who invoke Pete Rose into this whole discussion. Apples and oranges. What Pete did was worse, in my opinion. But that's beside the point - the point being, Pete Rose agreed to a lifetime banishment knowing full well what the ramifications were. No baseball. No Hall of Fame. I have no sympathy for Pete. His own stubbornness is what sealed his fate. Not some made-up double-standard by MLB.

I do find it comical that McGwire's play on the field cheated the game.....yet he's welcomed back....while Pete Rose's play on the field never cheated the game and he's 20+ years on the outside looking in.

Does Lance really not understand why Pete is not allowed to be in any position to influence the outcome of baseball games?

[HilltopperRuss]

No, I just think cheating is cheating.

The reason for my feelings on the writers is because it is too easy to get a vote. The only thing you need for being a voter is to be a member for 10 years. Does not mean you neen to be a baseball writer all that time, or at all. Just means you need to be a member.

[master_of_muppets]

a cardinal admits to cheating. BFD. the sun also rose today.

ok, ok…*i know…*sammy.

but still: my point is that i have a sense that for the majority of baseball fans, PEDs just aren't a big deal. not until there is a common understanding of what a PED is. as i've said before, most of the supplements i take daily would likely constitute as a PED for an MLB player. i just don't care, and i don't think the majority of baseball fans do either.

[david aka the TYZ]

I'm glad McGwire decided to come clean. It does nothing to change anyone's opinion of him, because everyone knew he was juicing, but coming out and admitting it is the best thing to do. My opinion on steroids is: they were available, they made you better (which means higher $$ contracts), MLB looked the other way, you can't blame people for taking them. It's one thing if MLB had a list of substances and tested for those substances like they do now and you knowingly and willingly cheated. But back then they didn't. It was known it would be frowned upon, but it really wasn't carved out in stone until the late 90's and early 00's. I really hate the higher than though mentality that a lot of people have toward athletes or any celebrities. I think it boils down to jealousy and sometimes even rascism. (That's another discussion.) I think these steroid era players shouldn't be automatically excluded from the Hall, but I do think their skewed numbers should be taken into affect. Example: Palmeiro and Sosa probably aren't Hall-worthy without inflated stats. Bonds, Arod, Manny and Clemens are. McGwire is trickier. I think without the inflated stats he is on the bubble. HR's was about all he brought to the table. Without steroids he still would have been a pretty good home run hitter. I just don't know if it would've been enough to make a push for the Hall. If I had to lean one way I would probably say no. Biggest reason might be the fact that Roger Maris isn't in there (HOF voters always have to compare you to someone). McGwire's rookie season would be is biggest asset for inclusion.

Side note about Pete. A lot of people don't realize the Hall of Fame is not affiliated with MLB. It is a privately run organization. When Pete took the lifetime ban (with reinstatement possible after one year) that did not include the Hall. The Hall of Fame made the decision not to include Pete on it's ballots because he was banned.

[david aka the TYZ]

I'm glad McGwire decided to come clean. It does nothing to change anyone's opinion of him, because everyone knew he was juicing, but coming out and admitting it is the best thing to do. My opinion on steroids is: they were available, they made you better (which means higher $$ contracts), MLB looked the other way, you can't blame people for taking them. It's one thing if MLB had a list of substances and tested for those substances like they do now and you knowingly and willingly cheated. But back then they didn't. It was known it would be frowned upon, but it really wasn't carved out in stone until the late 90's and early 00's. I really hate the higher than though mentality that a lot of people have toward athletes or any celebrities. I think it boils down to jealousy and sometimes even rascism. (That's another discussion.) I think these steroid era players shouldn't be automatically excluded from the Hall, but I do think their skewed numbers should be taken into affect. Example: Palmeiro and Sosa probably aren't Hall-worthy without inflated stats. Bonds, Arod, Manny and Clemens are. McGwire is trickier. I think without the inflated stats he is on the bubble. HR's was about all he brought to the table. Without steroids he still would have been a pretty good home run hitter. I just don't know if it would've been enough to make a push for the Hall. If I had to lean one way I would probably say no. Biggest reason might be the fact that Roger Maris isn't in there (HOF voters always have to compare you to someone). McGwire's rookie season would be is biggest asset for inclusion.

Side note about Pete. A lot of people don't realize the Hall of Fame is not affiliated with MLB. It is a privately run organization. When Pete took the lifetime ban (with reinstatement possible after one year) that did not include the Hall. The Hall of Fame made the decision not to include Pete on it's ballots because he was banned.

[osu99jp]

I am surprised when I find out how many people don't realize that the Hall of Fame is not run by MLB in any way, shape, or form.

Mike & Mike were talking to Buster Olney the other morning and asked why MLB doesn't just mandate that all steroid users are ineligible for the Hall of Fame.....and Buster's like, "um...because MLB run the Hall of Fame" and both were like, "Really?!"

I was pretty surprised they didn't know that.

It really is kind of petty and stupid that the Hall dose not "induct" banned players yet they proudly display their artifacts and tout their accomplishments.

Given a choice, I think Pete would rather be allowed back into baseball than have a plaque in the Hall of Fame. But he will likely get neither.

If I were a ballplayer or ex-ballplayer I'd be more pissed at someone who bet on the game than 'roiders.

[david aka the TYZ]

I think the Hall doesn't want to piss off MLB. I agree that it's funny how there are plenty of Rose artifacts in the Hall but he is not allowed enshrinement. His accomplishments on the field pretty much define what the Hall of Fame and the game of baseball are all about. I understand the Hall's delimna. I think they should add a "tainted wing" or something to the Hall and include players like him and "Shoeless" Joe Jackson and Bonds/Clemens that enshrines players based on their abilities, but tells the story of their fall from grace. That way these players aren't excluded like they never existed, but they still don't get they same high recognition and induction ceremonies that other players get.