New Abu Ghraib photos

[Tedesco]

Warning: NSFW.

NSFW: Disturbing New Photos From Abu Ghraib

[master_of_muppets]

this is not good. my stomach churned looking at all of those. that is not justice, what those hack "soldiers" did to those men. i don't care if one of them was osama-fucking-bin-laden, that is not justice.

[bearcat428]

I didn't look at them, I only wanted to confirm it wasn't something new. To me, posting those pictures is like posting pictures from a crime scene in which someone's mother has been brutally killed by a 19 year-old from xyz college and then saying that 19 year-old and his acts represents that xyz college.
That incident involved a few individuals who are in jail. We have 10's of thousands of troops who have served over there and have set a standard never before seen in war. They are our best and brightest.
The posting of these pictures pisses me off.

[Franny]

We have 10's of thousands of troops who have served over there and have set a standard never before seen in war. They are our best and brightest.
The posting of these pictures pisses me off.

Really, that all doesn't matter. You can't have anyone working in interrogations that mistreat human beings. Whether 10,000 individuals do it or 1, if you break the rules set forth in the Geneva Convention for the humane treatment of Prisoners, it's a bad situation. And none of this stuff ever helps the fact that 3/4 of the world already thinks the U.S. is populated by a bunch of imperialistic barbarians.

Now who is sick and stupid enough to take photos of this stuff? That's the troubling part.

Having said that, I looked at the pics. There is no evidence of improper torturing. It is more sick desecration of corpses. Those soldiers need psychological help.

[HilltopperRuss]

A few made a mistake. But seems to me all the prisioners are alive.

Why not post a few pictures of the prisioners the other side took of their prisioners of war. That should really give some people a big laugh.

[master_of_muppets]

what i see in those pics is a mini-culture that didn't find this behavior to be wrong - sort of like going to work at a new job where the office culture is really, really off. to me, that's the most offensive thing. if americans are not the demonstrators of justice in even the most permissive situations, then america will certainly not impact the people it is trying to serve.

i don't know what purpose the "yeah, but the other guys..." point does to help america. that point does nothing to tend to our house, our problems.

not to get too philosophical here, but i think these photos are an example of moral relativism, and a demonstration of what the disbelief in absolute moral truth can produce.

[bearcat428]

Originally Posted by master_of_muppets

what i see in those pics is a mini-culture that didn't find this behavior to be wrong - sort of like going to work at a new job where the office culture is really, really off. to me, that's the most offensive thing. if americans are not the demonstrators of justice in even the most permissive situations, then america will certainly not impact the people it is trying to serve.

i don't know what purpose the "yeah, but the other guys..." point does to help america. that point does nothing to tend to our house, our problems.

not to get too philosophical here, but i think these photos are an example of moral relativism, and a demonstration of what the disbelief in absolute moral truth can produce.

you seem to indicate those pics represent some sort of common behavior? Using very conservative numbers...if there were 20 individuals involved, which I believe the number was far less than that, and there have been 40,000 soldiers who have served in Iraq to date, which is not even close...but we'll use that number. That's .05%
If anything it shows the quality of people we have representing us over there.

[HilltopperRuss]

Typical reaction from you MOM. I mean these photos are so much more important than anything they could do. I mean we took photos. That's much worse than some beheadings and things.

[master_of_muppets]

do we have to back up to 10th grade, and cover the "butterfly effect"? or further back, and cover the princess and the pea?

though these criminals only represent 1% of 1% of 1% of the military, their actions have an impact on the overall mission far greater than is given credit. each one of these photos could inspire 100 men to fight against the americans.

i'm not saying anything about the military as a whole - if you think that, you need to re-read what i posted. i am talking about a confined, "micro-culture" that OKs certain behavior. the debate isn't about photos, it's about a micro-culture that had no reservations about behaving like that.

if you believe in justice and rule of law, then these photos are crushing to you. the criminals playing out cruelty in these photos are the opposite of america, and should spend many, many years in prison.

[bearcat428]

you've lost me? they're in prison, have been in prison and will be in prison. there is no culture about it. every society has had individuals like this since the beginning of time. most have higher occurences in everyday society let alone in an environment of war. did you expect 10's of thousands of individuals to fight a war, and not have one ill act? I would suggest the bigger impact for anyone that thinks logically is that there haven't been more. that makes me proud.

[osu99jp]

I've read through the thread several times, and never came away thinking that MOM is somehow implying that these idiots are "just a microcosm" of the millitary as a whole. I thought he made it very clear that while "their type" only represent a tiny fraction of the military, the impact of their idiocy is far greater than that tiny fraction. I get his point and agree with it to a large degree. It's not as simple as just punishing the guilty parties and going on with life. Their stupidity did far more damage than they could ever have comprehended as they were performing these ridiculous acts.


Bearcat, while I get what you're saying as well and I agree that our military consists of the bravest of the brave - a lot braver than I am - you almost seem to be saying that rather than focusing on these few bad apples who have been punished, we should *commend* those members of our military that don't engage in this behavior. It reminds me of Chris Rock's old bit about people that like to take credit for doing the shit that they're supposed to do. They brag, "I take care of my kids!" - "I've never been to jail!". To which Rock asks, "whatchu want, a cookie?! You're supposed to take care of your kids, ya dumb muthafucka!"

I know that's not literally what you meant, I just had to get that Chris Rock bit in there....but it seems like you just want to take problems like this and treat them like the anomalies that we all know they are - punish the criminals, sweep it under the rug and forget it ever happened.

I wish it were that simple.